Toni Toomey (00:15) Today I'm joined by Vogue fashion journalist Annabelle Azadé to talk about postpartum identity, body image, and returning to yourself after motherhood. This episode is brought to you by Hone, a postpartum apparel brand creating hormone safe, thoughtfully designed clothing for nursing mothers. Toni Toomey (00:32) Welcome back to the Postpartum Standard. I'm joined here today by Annabelle. Thank you so much for joining me, Annabelle. Annabelle KAJBAF (00:39) Hi, Toni. Thank you so much for having me as well. Such a great, you know, always a great time to have you and just like so happy to talk about postpartum and motherhood with you today. Toni Toomey (00:50) Yeah, so let's dive in and tell us a little bit about you and your motherhood and postpartum journey. Annabelle KAJBAF (00:56) Absolutely. So thank you for asking, by the way. So ⁓ I started ⁓ being a mom last year. you know, I think like the first thing I want to say is that the biggest scam of all is you think you're pregnant for nine, but you're actually pregnant for 10 months. ⁓ So it was kind of a discovery as I was pregnant, which kind of shows how little education we have regarding motherhood in Western societies. Toni Toomey (01:16) you Annabelle KAJBAF (01:26) They tell you 40 weeks, but 40 weeks is 10 months. So it's much longer than you think it is. ⁓ My pregnancy was pretty hard because I had a lot of hormonal ⁓ situation and issues. ⁓ And I think that it was ⁓ really hard for me to accept ⁓ the... the journey because it was very long. ⁓ After that, I will say that from my postpartum, I really had a big depression ⁓ because also same, people don't really tell you in society, ⁓ you're gonna lose your hormones. All the hormones that made you glow, that made your hair so nice and so shiny and everything ⁓ is just something that's gonna abruptly stop. To me it was really hard too because you know I work in fashion. ⁓ A lot of people do not have children or they have children later in life. So I'm definitely kind of a UFO in the field that I work in. And so it was really hard as well to navigate that feeling because I didn't really have a lot of people to talk about it with. I do have a neighbor who has a baby. I do have a friend, a fashion status that I see from time to time. But it's hard because there's not very much of a community, especially in a big city as Los Angeles, to discuss everything you Toni Toomey (02:55) Mm-hmm. Annabelle KAJBAF (02:58) can talk about whether it's like how to breastfeed, like my baby wasn't latching, for example, so that was really hard for me. I had a big feeling of guilt, you know, maybe I was not built to be a mom because my baby doesn't want to drink my milk. ⁓ Turns out he was in NICU for a week. So obviously, you know, he started being on the bottle, so it had nothing to do with me. But there's some kind of like, you know, guilt that I had that was really terrible. I definitely had suicidal thoughts, like let's be honest. Very dark thoughts of like, you maybe I'm not done to do this and everything. But I do have a wonderful support system in my private life, which is my husband, my husband's mother. ⁓ and friends, know, like personal friends. And I think that really, really helped me overcome all these feelings. ⁓ I live also in gated community, so we do have, you know, a lot of like closeness and ties and that was a really good feeling because it was really hard. Toni Toomey (04:01) Yeah, it's, ⁓ thank you so much for sharing that. And I'm sorry that it was so hard. That's nobody prepares you. ⁓ Annabelle KAJBAF (04:08) Yes, and also I would add one thing is that in France, I'm French, in France, people don't really push you to ⁓ breastfeed. Toni Toomey (04:21) Mmm. Annabelle KAJBAF (04:21) you to have the bottle and here people push you to a breastfeed. And ⁓ there was this nurse that was paid by the hospital to come to her house, which felt very invasive. Like the next baby, I'm not going to that. She was kind of like, kind of trying to like judge how our house was done and how to latch on the baby and everything. And she was kind of making me feel like I was very inadequate. So I was already not doing good. ⁓ Toni Toomey (04:26) Yeah. Annabelle KAJBAF (04:51) I think like the second or third time I asked her not to come back. And she was old and not nice. So guys get a good lactation ⁓ consultant. He was through the lactation network, which is even more surprising because it's the national orientation for lactation. But she was very much old style, like, know, like women have to breastfeed and women have to stay home. And I'm like, no, that's the thing. I went back to work after 10 days. So it was just not. Toni Toomey (04:55) Yeah. Thank No. Yeah. wow. Yeah, that's, totally agree with you on the lactation consultant. It's so important. I was in the hospital and I had a very similar experience with a nurse who just like grabbed my boob and shoved it in my baby's mouth. And I was like, I did not get permission for any of this. Annabelle KAJBAF (05:20) So that's an introduction, very cheerful for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, me too. It's still, it's still gynecological violence in some ways. I mean, you know, it's definitely body violation of the woman, but as per usual, you know, they were, we don't matter, right? It's just like, it's really weird, honestly. And I know my husband was really embarrassed. Like he was looking at her, like, what is she doing here? And he was like, are you sure you want her back and stuff? And I was like, you know what? I don't really want her, you know. Toni Toomey (05:54) It is. Annabelle KAJBAF (06:04) And he's he's a bottle felled baby and he's very strong. So it doesn't mean anything, you know. Toni Toomey (06:09) Exactly. It's fed is best. However, they get fed is the way that it works. And that's, that's amazing. Of course, you mentioned a little bit about working in fashion. So tell me about like, what is that like coming back as a postpartum woman into high fashion? Like that had to be like a huge jolt and challenge. Annabelle KAJBAF (06:14) Exactly. Exactly. So thank you so much for letting me share that. ⁓ yes, so it was definitely interesting. ⁓ Basically, the idea is that ⁓ I gained 90 pounds due to a hormonal imbalance during my pregnancy. So I went from like a size, I would say two to a size 12. So that was a shock. ⁓ It was a lot of water retention. So I did a lot of lymphatic massages, like lymphatic drainage and stuff like that. lots of judgment, of course, you know, but I would say that definitely my gay friends were really nice. They were very like encouraging me. They were like, my God, you look so snatched. Like, my God, you're so good. ⁓ Toni Toomey (07:21) That's good. Annabelle KAJBAF (07:30) I think there's a lot of women as well in LA who don't want children so there was a lot of lack of empathy, obviously not from all the people who don't want to have children because some are really nice. But I will say there was a lot of empathy, maybe some kind of jealousy or competition, know, like, oh, you're in a big city, you find the right guy. you have a family now, well, I don't have that. So there was kind of a mirroring effect. So I will definitely say I've never lost so many friends, so-called friends, than this year. I think it's for the best. It's just like, as you know, having a child, it naturally like, said like the people, and obviously fashion is not in field where people have children, you know, like. They go from a set to another, travel all around the world to see those fashion shows, write stories and stuff, which it has been my life. I mean, as you can see in the background for so many years, like since I'm 18 and I love it, but now I do it in a different way and I'm happy that I enjoy it the way it was and have a new way to do it. But definitely there's some friction of some people who don't really understand your new life and your new priorities. Toni Toomey (08:40) Yeah, absolutely. That's the whole like rebirth, I think is the thing that moms are like least prepared for. You know that you're going to give birth to a baby, but you don't realize that you're going to become this whole new person that may or may not vibe with the life you had before. It's Annabelle KAJBAF (08:52) Yeah. Exactly. I mean, he's one year and one month and I'm only starting to go to the gym now. Like almost every day like I used to before, you know. It took a year. It took a year because even if I had time, I was so tired. The only thing I wanted to do was to just sleep. Toni Toomey (09:06) Yeah. Yeah. absolutely. Yeah, that's I was in the same boat. The first year was just survival mode. 100%. ⁓ Quick question for a mom that is struggling with like postpartum body image, what is like one mindset shift or wardrobe strategy or something that you implemented that can maybe help a fellow mom feel empowered rather than hidden and overwhelmed? Annabelle KAJBAF (09:42) So I basically ended up having three wardrobes, my pregnancy clothes, ⁓ and that I wear, I wore a lot of bum suits because they were kind of one of my sponsors, which was really nice because they have really good quality stuff. ⁓ Then I had a lot of Popflex as well, which was a sponsor too, and they had really cool stuff. Then for... postpartum, I kind of bought like super cheap dresses at Target. That was not really nice, but there's also a French brand called Kiabi, which is also pretty cheap, you know, but they were doing stuff with sustainable cotton. So, and it was only like 20 bucks a dress. But basically what happened is I had the pregnancy clothes, the postpartum clothes, and only for a few weeks now I have bought a set of capsule collection for my wardrobe of things that are almost the size I was before giving birth. But I think I'm going to keep the boobs. I was completely flat. So I think I'm going to keep the huge mom boobs, you know? So I think some things I will have to eventually sell because I think I'm not going to be able to give everything. So yeah, my strategy was like before, during, after, basically. Toni Toomey (10:58) Yeah, that's so smart, honestly, because nothing is more demoralizing than like trying to force yourself into clothes that don't fit. ⁓ Annabelle KAJBAF (11:06) I mean, I'm also half Persian, you so I have big hips and I'm pretty sure that my Middle Eastern figure definitely loved that I was pregnant and my hips got wider like the bone itself, you know. So I don't think that the bones are gonna shrink. Like, I mean, there's definitely some genes I'll never be able to fit even if I work out more. Toni Toomey (11:14) you Yeah, same. Yeah, it's wild the things that happen. I'm the same. had almost no boobs before and then now they're huge and yeah, two years they're sticking around. I went from a B to a triple D to a double D. So Annabelle KAJBAF (11:33) Oh yeah? Oh wow, thank you. Yeah, no, that's super interesting. It's almost like your body still has them in the sense of like almost the nature thing, like in case he needs them, you know? That's funny. Yeah. Toni Toomey (11:50) Yeah, yep. Or your body's preparing for the next one. Annabelle KAJBAF (11:55) Or, ⁓ actually you're right, maybe it's, because I'm always talking about it, maybe that's why. Toni Toomey (12:02) On a hard postpartum day, what is like one simple thing that you implemented that kind of helped you get through that you talked about you went through some really dark times like what are some things that helped you? Annabelle KAJBAF (12:16) It my friends. Really cool because we live in a gated community and we have access to a park that just belongs to the community. So it was just like, you know, walking around with the stroller and my dog and grabbing a coffee, ⁓ seeing the nature, seeing the nature was really, really important. And again, I'm very privileged to live in a... Toni Toomey (12:17) Yeah. Annabelle KAJBAF (12:40) neighborhood in the community where we have a lot of trees, flowers, like fruit trees, ⁓ herbs too, because in LA there's a lot of concrete too, you know, it's a big town so... Toni Toomey (12:52) Yeah. ⁓ Annabelle KAJBAF (12:56) really happy that I had to leave this ⁓ and I was really ⁓ happy of course to spend time with my husband and just seeing my friends, know, like talking about other things and just like babies because I'm not really that kind of girl. Toni Toomey (13:11) Yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah, having some sort of semblance of regular life is always helpful instead of focusing on 100%. That's awesome. Well, before we wrap, I like to end every episode with a few like quick questions, just instinctive answers, nothing too serious. What is one fashion rule that you think moms should totally ignore? Annabelle KAJBAF (13:23) this. yourself. Toni Toomey (13:49) Bye. Love that, totally agree. Annabelle KAJBAF (13:54) Yeah, you should have your buddy no matter what. It will give it to you. It will give it back to you. Toni Toomey (13:57) Yes. Absolutely. That's amazing. ⁓ So what do you think is like a style, a postpartum style that you would love to see like disappear? I'm sure you looked at a ton of postpartum apparel. Was there a specific style or trends that you needs to go? Annabelle KAJBAF (14:17) Yeah, I hate the maxi long dresses with kind of like, you know, kind of like a wrapped nod above the belly and like short sleeve. It's awful because you have huge arms because of the hormones and stuff. You don't want to show your arms. And on top of that, it puts a freaking knot on your belly. So it makes you bigger. That's awful. Toni Toomey (14:28) you Yeah, you're so right. That's so true. I have not thought about that, but I don't think I bought a single thing that was shaped like that. Yes. Annabelle KAJBAF (14:50) But you know what I mean, right? That's pretty common style. I hate it. Toni Toomey (14:55) It is absolutely awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining today. This has been so wonderful and your little one has been so great. He's a pro at podcasts already. Look at that little smile. Annabelle KAJBAF (15:06) I'm going home. Well, thank you so much, Johnny, for having me on the podcast. It was really nice to share this with you. And I hope it helps a little bit the audience, or at least it makes them feel nice to me. Toni Toomey (15:22) Thank you so much, Annabelle. I hope you have a great rest of the day. Cheers. Annabelle KAJBAF (15:26) Thank you Toni, bye bye.